tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18762198.post215570048968763346..comments2023-12-02T06:33:50.847-08:00Comments on Notes from a Common-place Book: "Where there is no solution, there is no problem"Terry (John)http://www.blogger.com/profile/07523479530843509695noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18762198.post-8925370717473035422009-11-27T12:06:44.385-08:002009-11-27T12:06:44.385-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Terry (John)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07523479530843509695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18762198.post-1249793777950966642009-11-27T12:06:42.372-08:002009-11-27T12:06:42.372-08:00Margaret, yes Islam is clearly the larger problem....Margaret, yes Islam is clearly the larger problem. But with the Arab Christians in Palestine, they had a critical mass, and always had a seat at the table, so to speak. I am in no way glossing over the centuries of persecution they have undergone, but broadly speaking, they maintained a relatively peaceful coexistence with their Muslim neighbors. Zionism has completely changed the dynamic. Arab Christians were, and are displaced, along with Palestinian Muslims. Israel expropriates Christian lands just as they do Muslim land. Their Wall separates Palestinian Christians, just as it separates Palestinian Muslims (try driving from most anywhere in the West Bank to Bethlehem, for example. It can't be done, if you are Palestinian.) And here's where the U.S. comes in. Our unwavering support for Israeli policies since the very beginning has made us both the perceived and very real accomplices in implementing the take-over. American evangelicals largely support Israel unquestioningly, based on their dispensationalist theology, seeing the establishment of the secular state of Israel as part of the God's eschatalogical end-game, so to speak. In their view, Israelis are the only ones with any "rights" in the dispute, and if Israel does something, it must be supported. And no American administration has seriously engaged this viewpoint. All the while, Palestinian Christians are caught in the squeeze. Israelis don't see the distincitons within the Palestinian community, and the Christian's Muslim neighbors now view them with suspicion, thinking they are at one with American Christians who cheer the Zionists on. The evangelicals here are oblivious to their plight, and if they knew of them at all, would not consider them "real" Christians. Our national hubris knows no bounds, it seems. The Jordanian town I stayed in last year used to be a town of 20,000 or so Orthodox Christians. Now it is a city of over 100,000. The Christians are still there, but now the city is swelled with Palestinian Muslim refugees from the West Bank and Israel. Clearly, the dynamic has changed, and the Christians' position there much more precarious than it would have otherwise have been. You are correct, if Israel were not there, or was there within its 1967 borders, Palestinian Christians would still have problems. But at least it would be a one-front war.Terry (John)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07523479530843509695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18762198.post-60765271953214945972009-11-27T12:06:41.004-08:002009-11-27T12:06:41.004-08:00Margaret, yes Islam is clearly the larger problem....Margaret, yes Islam is clearly the larger problem. But with the Arab Christians in Palestine, they had a critical mass, and always had a seat at the table, so to speak. I am in no way glossing over the centuries of persecution they have undergone, but broadly speaking, they maintained a relatively peaceful coexistence with their Muslim neighbors. Zionism has completely changed the dynamic. Arab Christians were, and are displaced, along with Palestinian Muslims. Israel expropriates Christian lands just as they do Muslim land. Their Wall separates Palestinian Christians, just as it separates Palestinian Muslims (try driving from most anywhere in the West Bank to Bethlehem, for example. It can't be done, if you are Palestinian.) And here's where the U.S. comes in. Our unwavering support for Israeli policies since the very beginning has made us both the perceived and very real accomplices in implementing the take-over. American evangelicals largely support Israel unquestioningly, based on their dispensationalist theology, seeing the establishment of the secular state of Israel as part of the God's eschatalogical end-game, so to speak. In their view, Israelis are the only ones with any "rights" in the dispute, and if Israel does something, it must be supported. And no American administration has seriously engaged this viewpoint. All the while, Palestinian Christians are caught in the squeeze. Israelis don't see the distincitons within the Palestinian community, and the Christian's Muslim neighbors now view them with suspicion, thinking they are at one with American Christians who cheer the Zionists on. The evangelicals here are oblivious to their plight, and if they knew of them at all, would not consider them "real" Christians. Our national hubris knows no bounds, it seems. The Jordanian town I stayed in last year used to be a town of 20,000 or so Orthodox Christians. Now it is a city of over 100,000. The Christians are still there, but now the city is swelled with Palestinian Muslim refugees from the West Bank and Israel. Clearly, the dynamic has changed, and the Christians' position there much more precarious than it would have otherwise have been. You are correct, if Israel were not there, or was there within its 1967 borders, Palestinian Christians would still have problems. But at least it would be a one-front war.Terry (John)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07523479530843509695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18762198.post-14901680625738049572009-11-27T01:47:25.865-08:002009-11-27T01:47:25.865-08:00I completely agree - America's role in the mid...I completely agree - America's role in the middle-east, particularly vis-a-vis Israel and Palestine needs rethought. I'm not sure though that it's a big player in destroying the indigenous Christian population in the Holy Land. That destruction is ongoing throughout the region and Christians, who are usually better educated and more mobile are getting out as far and fast as they can. I don't think there's any reason to think that if there wasn't an Israel a Muslim Palestine would be any more tolerant of Christians than anywhere else, Islam is the problem there, not Zionism. Zionism adds an extra layer of misery but it's not the foundation.margarethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07727534908302610374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18762198.post-72581795733212331512009-11-25T13:09:22.942-08:002009-11-25T13:09:22.942-08:00Yep, Kennan was usually right on target, both then...Yep, Kennan was usually right on target, both then and now.Terry (John)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07523479530843509695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18762198.post-73502245264802984942009-11-24T19:54:59.204-08:002009-11-24T19:54:59.204-08:00A note here on George F. Kennan:
Kennan's his...A note here on George F. Kennan:<br /><br />Kennan's historical writings, and his memoirs, lament in great detail the failings of democratic foreign policymakers and those of the United States in particular. According to Kennan, when American policymakers suddenly confronted the Cold War, they had inherited little more than rationale and rhetoric "utopian in expectations, legalistic in concept, moralistic in [the] demand it seemed to place on others, and self-righteous in the degree of high-mindedness and rectitude... to ourselves". The source of the problem, according to Kennan, is the force of public opinion, a force that is inevitably unstable, unserious, subjective, emotional, and simplistic. As a result, Kennan has insisted that the U.S. public can only be united behind a foreign policy goal on the "primitive level of slogans and jingoistic ideological inspiration".<br /><br />And apt description, is it not?Milton T. Burtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01063079657696373189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18762198.post-48662876137197371742009-11-24T14:54:57.163-08:002009-11-24T14:54:57.163-08:00John, I couldn't agree more. We are an arroga...John, I couldn't agree more. We are an arrogant Nation that doesn't seem to remember that it took numerous wars (one civil), 250 years of civil and racial strife to end up in this wonderful mess known at the USA. So obviously we are qualified to promote special interests (AIPAC and American Christian Zionists), ooopppps, I mean fix this problem.Sabahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15325454187619241794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18762198.post-49571286390389496632009-11-24T09:48:18.824-08:002009-11-24T09:48:18.824-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Terry (John)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07523479530843509695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18762198.post-4172974819747705242009-11-24T09:48:18.129-08:002009-11-24T09:48:18.129-08:00Margaret, I no longer hang on Tom Friedman's e...Margaret, I no longer hang on Tom Friedman's every word either. My beef is not with Israel, exactly, but rather with the role we play in the situation (AIPAC and American Christian Zionists.) That, and our complicity in the ongoing destruction of the Christian populations there.Terry (John)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07523479530843509695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18762198.post-21310637097551707592009-11-24T08:59:25.588-08:002009-11-24T08:59:25.588-08:00I stopped reading Tom Friedman a while back becaus...I stopped reading Tom Friedman a while back because he had got predictable after the fashion of Mr Limbaugh and Dr Laura. He has a point here though - if they like it let them live with it. If the Israelis can't retrench as far as Jerusalem (divided capitals and lands within lands don't work) and the Palestinians can't let go of the Mein Kampf/Elders of Zion mentality that made their ancestors so unsavoury in the last war then they almost deserve eachother. Mind, in Israel if you happen to be gay or want to go out with someone your father doesn't like or are unlucky enough to be raped by your uncle when you're seven you probably won't be decapitated or left to bleed to death. Crazy as it's got Israel has some definite advantages.margarethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07727534908302610374noreply@blogger.com